Is stealing wireless wrong?

[acidtechno]

In light of the recent arrest of a man caught using someone elses wireless internet connection, BBC News has launched an interesting POLL, I advise you to take part. I've put my vote in. NO for me, and it looks like most people think the same so far

There's also an interesting article to read.

Is taking unsecured wi-fi without permission wrong?
Yes
No
Not sure

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6960304.stm

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Recent comments from: http://www.freedom2support.net/forum...ead.php?t=9053

Originally Posted by nettech

I know you were probably joking but I've just seen this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6958429.stm

Originally Posted by acidtechno

yeah, we've heard of people being caught before, but I think it's rare, it's only if you are seen to be caught, in your own home you are not going to be caught for using someone elses.

Personally I think these laws are rubbish, it should be the responsibility of the person using wireless to protect it, getting free internet from someone should not be a crime, because someone is giving it away without protecting it. It's like leaving something outside with a sign saying take me away, except the sign is on your computer instead. It's a waste of time and money for cops to handle this sort of thing.

[akita_inu]

I voted 'No' too - my take on it is that stealing, by definition, is taking something away from the owner; and thereby depriving them of the use of it - I don't think anyone using an unsecured wifi network does that ... ?

[gomez]

I voted yes. Are there really so many people out there with a warped sense of right and wrong? Given the day on day stories of random shootings, maybe so

[John]

Originally Posted by akita_inu

I voted 'No' too - my take on it is that stealing, by definition, is taking something away from the owner; and thereby depriving them of the use of it - I don't think anyone using an unsecured wifi network does that ... ?

But you are potentially depriving the of bandwidth and the capacity of the service, and using up the limit so you are stopping them in a way, but I do see your point Rachel.

[nettech]

Yes. Of course it's wrong!

Call me possesive if you like, but I paid for my wireless router out of my hard-earned cash. Same for my broadband connection (180GBP per year). What makes it right that someone can freeload off my equipment that I am paying for and they are getting for nothing? There seem to be an increasing number of people these days who seem to expect something for nothing.

And, just because a network is unsecured, does that make it right? Sure, if you don't take all necessary measures to secure your equipment you're being foolish, but that doesn't change the morality of it. Anyway, just because a network is made "secure" doesn't mean it cannot be broken into.

By the way, I couldn't see a poll on the BBC website, only comments, did I miss a poll? Perhaps we should start our own one here.

[AndyBites]

Definately wrong, how could it be anything but?

Christ, at BEST it'd be like me having an unmetered water supply, so the local car wash business decide to sneak a hose from my Garden shed. All okay, until i get a call from the water board telling me they're investigating me for using far more water than I should be. Possible legal action etc.

At worst i have a metered supply from my local water firm and my bill comes in and it's 8times what i expect..

In NO way is it right - to look at any other way is plainly wrong.

[atsw]

Agreed - 100%

Andrew

[janitor]

Of course it's wrong, you get up later for work rush out pull the door behind you it closes but fails to lock you come home no TV no computer MP3 players all gone . Scroat gets caught goes to court but he failed to lock the door your honour i wasn't stealing. So the person he stole the bandwidth from has should have secured his network the fact he didn't makes no difference it is still taking something for which he had no right.

[akita_inu]

It's not something I've done - nor ever would do; in fact, I get really annoyed when I keep getting 'new wireless networks' notices keep popping up all the time - the majority unsecured ... But it's a relatively minor transgression ... in my opinion.
There are shades of grey, and it's interesting to find out what other people think - for instance, I once tackled someone at work about putting their Christmas cards through the franking machine .... they wouldn't have dreamed of stealing stamps, but thought using the franking machine was OK ... And many people seem to feel that 'borrowing' pens / paper / envelopes is OK .. (I don't!)

[acidtechno]

Originally Posted by nettech

Call me possesive if you like, but I paid for my wireless router out of my hard-earned cash. Same for my broadband connection (180GBP per year). What makes it right that someone can freeload off my equipment that I am paying for and they are getting for nothing? There seem to be an increasing number of people these days who seem to expect something for nothing.

And, just because a network is unsecured, does that make it right? Sure, if you don't take all necessary measures to secure your equipment you're being foolish, but that doesn't change the morality of it. Anyway, just because a network is made "secure" doesn't mean it cannot be broken into.

By the way, I couldn't see a poll on the BBC website, only comments, did I miss a poll? Perhaps we should start our own one here.

You might have paid for your equipment and internet fees, but you should take steps to make sure it's your own and not an open public service. There will always be people who will take advantage. People who are in the know need to educate others about security - including individuals, ISPs, equipment makers, government, a waterfall effect will create it so the majority are secured instead of the minority.

In my view, people who choose not to secure their wireless connection are choosing to make it available to everyone to use and access, surely everyone can agree that is the case, especially if they know about security and they should do, because when setting up wireless they will encounter security settings.

It's strange there is no POLL there on that BBC link I gave now, because there definitely was yesterday, and last time I looked yesterday over 20 thousand people had voted, and I think it said nearly 60% said No, perhaps the BBC got alarmed and took the vote off, or maybe the police or government advised, because they feared it would affect public opinion and cause too many people to think it's ok to do it.

Originally Posted by AndyBites

Definately wrong, how could it be anything but?

Christ, at BEST it'd be like me having an unmetered water supply,

In NO way is it right - to look at any other way is plainly wrong.

You can't be 100% serious Andy, there can be many ways to look at it, reasons why people use another connection.

To use the water supply as a good comparison isn't very good, because they are totally different things. Using a wireless connection is very easy and quick to do, easy to get away with and no trace but getting onto a water or electric supply requires a lot of know how and real world physical noise and activity outside of the home/car.

Some people use someone elses connection by accident, because they are not very aware of how internet connections work and don't bother to read manuals and educate themselves about everything.

Some people use it because it's convenient if they get a signal in the local area, when their own internet is down, or visiting someone or some area, it's convenient for there and then and might be for a good reason. It saves time and money, and there can't be an argument that it's using so much usage when it's a few days e-mail and browsing for example.

Then there are people who use to do illegal activities, which could be among many. Obviously I don't agree with this.

Also there are people who don't bother to pay for their own internet, but sponge off others for it in the local area, I don't agree with this either.

Originally Posted by janitor

Of course it's wrong, you get up later for work rush out pull the door behind you it closes but fails to lock you come home no TV no computer MP3 players all gone . Scroat gets caught goes to court but he failed to lock the door your honour i wasn't stealing. So the person he stole the bandwidth from has should have secured his network the fact he didn't makes no difference it is still taking something for which he had no right.

Like the water supply comparison, I don't agree with the stealing house contents either. It's very different, and again a real world event that requires a lot of physical effort in movement and with risk of high visibility, it's obviously very low to do that to someone, and very desperate. Household contents are pretty cheap to buy these days, unless it's something extra special. Internet use is even cheaper, and a bit of use is not costing much - someone is usually not losing much out of their pocket, maybe it has an affect if they are on a very low use package but this again falls down to security, if they get surprises about use from their ISP they will soon learn fast about security then.

I can see using someone elses wireless connection similar to piracy of movies, it might be lower quality with speed and is not as good as the real thing, that will probably put most people off because they want the best and not the worst out of an experience.

Originally Posted by akita_inu

It's not something I've done - nor ever would do; in fact, I get really annoyed when I keep getting 'new wireless networks' notices keep popping up all the time - the majority unsecured ...

I'm the same, I've never done it either, I first learned about wireless and security a few months ago when I got a 2nd hand laptop and messed around with the router with it, I was surprised to see other SSIDs listed near me but most were too far away for a good signal, I live in a small village. All of them were secured and it's highly unlikely I will want to sponge off an unsecured connection, I am perfectly happy with my own internet which I pay good money for.

Going into detail I am for and against this activity but there's no harm in it if it is for good reason, and you can't call something so bad and a crime even if it is for good reason.

Can anyone else agree that the time spent by police on this law is time wasted? the majority of people using others wireless will never get caught, it's untraceable. You will only really get caught if you are caught in the street with your pants down, then again it's unlikely there will be cops near you to catch you, and you can always disconnect before they even get a visual of your screen and connection details, but I have no idea if history can show how you were previously connected to the internet (ISP and IP). I just think, people who do it for illegal reasons are not stupid enough to get caught in public, and it's highly dependant on your location for strength and how many sources. In the cities I bet it's easy to use connections and I bet it happens all the time. Yeah arrest everybody - that will work, the cops just got lucky with this man and are making an example out of him, way to go. I just hope people get educated instead of a missed opportunity and just using the news as a laugh and a you deserve it thought at the man.

[normski]

Originally Posted by janitor

Of course it's wrong, you get up later for work rush out pull the door behind you it closes but fails to lock you come home no TV no computer MP3 players all gone . Scroat gets caught goes to court but he failed to lock the door your honour i wasn't stealing. So the person he stole the bandwidth from has should have secured his network the fact he didn't makes no difference it is still taking something for which he had no right.

But you took precautions by trying to lock your home. In the rush to get to work (for the sake of argument) you didn't notice that the locks had not clicked shut.

If on the other hand you took ten thousand pounds out of your bank account and left it in a transparent polythene bag outside your house and expected it still to be there the next day.....

Well...the technicalities of the law might still say it was theft it it was gone.

But realistically...you gotta say, tuff luck.

[gomez]

Originally Posted by acidtechno

In my view, people who choose not to secure their wireless connection are choosing to make it available to everyone to use and access, surely everyone can agree that is the case,

People who "choose" may be, but the argument is about those leave their wireless connection open out of ignorance. Surely you can agree that they have *not* chosen to to make it available to everyone? Perhaps you would not mind if complete strangers wandered up in the pub and took a swig from your drink while your back was turned.

[AndyBites]

Originally Posted by acidtechno

You can't be 100% serious Andy, there can be many ways to look at it, reasons why people use another connection.

To use the water supply as a good comparison isn't very good, because they are totally different things. Using a wireless connection is very easy and quick to do, easy to get away with and no trace but getting onto a water or electric supply requires a lot of know how and real world physical noise and activity outside of the home/car.

Some people use someone elses connection by accident, because they are not very aware of how internet connections work and don't bother to read manuals and educate themselves about everything.

Some people use it because it's convenient if they get a signal in the local area, when their own internet is down, or visiting someone or some area, it's convenient for there and then and might be for a good reason. It saves time and money, and there can't be an argument that it's using so much usage when it's a few days e-mail and browsing for example.

Then there are people who use to do illegal activities, which could be among many. Obviously I don't agree with this.

Also there are people who don't bother to pay for their own internet, but sponge off others for it in the local area, I don't agree with this either.

So you're justifying theft of wireless internet because it doesn't call much noise / visible aggrivation?!
And to say there's no trace.. is well.. Naive to say the least. My net server at home could easily log every connection opened and the MAC address from which these requests were made. I know MAC's can be spoofed.
Imagine the possibilties as an owner of a network - you could set up a kind of honeypot network, use the copying cookies trick and any account that the wireless theives use would be compromised.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/08...lic_wifi_hack/
Just seems a bit foolish to me, i'd not use someone elses connection and i'd not allow anyone else to use mine.

I've got a tmobile 3g 'unlimited' data plan, capped at 3gigs.. costs me £12.50 a month - for that i get more than enough data wherever i may be - certainly more than quick enough to check my emails, i can use IM (MSN etc), even a bit of P2P (and so long as you keep connections down to a low number its not throttled) and it's very handy at work if away from an easy network point!! Plus 3g coverage is fantastic in most of the big cities i stay / work in. Edinburgh/Birmingham/Manchester/Norwich - i know they're all big cities but suits me just fine. Very handy at the airport on a monday morning too - Downloading all the pod casts from the week before

[acidtechno]

Originally Posted by AndyBites

So you're justifying theft of wireless internet because it doesn't call much noise / visible aggrivation?!
And to say there's no trace.. is well.. Naive to say the least. My net server at home could easily log every connection opened and the MAC address from which these requests were made. I know MAC's can be spoofed.
Imagine the possibilties as an owner of a network - you could set up a kind of honeypot network, use the copying cookies trick and any account that the wireless theives use would be compromised.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/08...lic_wifi_hack/
Just seems a bit foolish to me, i'd not use someone elses connection and i'd not allow anyone else to use mine.

I've got a tmobile 3g 'unlimited' data plan, capped at 3gigs.. costs me £12.50 a month - for that i get more than enough data wherever i may be - certainly more than quick enough to check my emails, i can use IM (MSN etc), even a bit of P2P (and so long as you keep connections down to a low number its not throttled) and it's very handy at work if away from an easy network point!! Plus 3g coverage is fantastic in most of the big cities i stay / work in. Edinburgh/Birmingham/Manchester/Norwich - i know they're all big cities but suits me just fine. Very handy at the airport on a monday morning too - Downloading all the pod casts from the week before

I respect you have more knowledge than I on this subject Andy and was hoping more people would offer input on the discussion like you have. I admit I was ignorant with some of my comments.

Some of the things I said when commenting on the comparison of crimes put up against wireless use was that other crimes can do alot more damage, require more know how and with people with criminal minds you probably don't want to get mixed up with. I believe there are a vast number of people from all different backgrounds who are guilty of using someone elses wireless connection for various reasons, and probably most of the time for normal everyday internet use. As my previous posts explain, I don't want to justify the act being right but there is a place for it and it can be helpful. My main annoyance is that blame should lay mainly with the lazy and unwilling to learn people who leave their networks wide open. I don't believe police time should be spent on hunting any person who is accessing the internet. Some people probably don't care and leave their networks open.

how about put more resources onto fighting the violent crime that seems to be cropping up so frequently. There are a lot more serious issues in this country than accessing the internet from someone elses wireless connection (some idiots wireless connection, some lazy sod, someone who didn't read their manual, people who don't listen), do you see my point?

people should be educated more about security, instead of having laws in place for something so insignificant imo.

if you can be traced, then ok, but the majority of people who have open networks are probably not going to know how, because they are probably the least technologically aware.

the 3g stuff sounds great and I've been curious about these phones that offer internet, I still don't own a mobile but does it cover most of the country or only the big cities? is IM using a mobile annoying? probably not if you are a txt freak with fast fingers. What's it like accessing sites though like dvd stores and ebay? you have to do a lot of scrolling? since it's on a small screen.

[AndyBites]

Originally Posted by acidtechno

I respect you have more knowledge than I on this subject Andy and was hoping more people would offer input on the discussion like you have. I admit I was ignorant with some of my comments.

Some of the things I said when commenting on the comparison of crimes put up against wireless use was that other crimes can do alot more damage, require more know how and with people with criminal minds you probably don't want to get mixed up with. I believe there are a vast number of people from all different backgrounds who are guilty of using someone elses wireless connection for various reasons, and probably most of the time for normal everyday internet use. As my previous posts explain, I don't want to justify the act being right but there is a place for it and it can be helpful. My main annoyance is that blame should lay mainly with the lazy and unwilling to learn people who leave their networks wide open. I don't believe police time should be spent on hunting any person who is accessing the internet. Some people probably don't care and leave their networks open.

how about put more resources onto fighting the violent crime that seems to be cropping up so frequently. There are a lot more serious issues in this country than accessing the internet from someone elses wireless connection (some idiots wireless connection, some lazy sod, someone who didn't read their manual, people who don't listen), do you see my point?

people should be educated more about security, instead of having laws in place for something so insignificant imo.

if you can be traced, then ok, but the majority of people who have open networks are probably not going to know how, because they are probably the least technologically aware.

the 3g stuff sounds great and I've been curious about these phones that offer internet, I still don't own a mobile but does it cover most of the country or only the big cities? is IM using a mobile annoying? probably not if you are a txt freak with fast fingers. What's it like accessing sites though like dvd stores and ebay? you have to do a lot of scrolling? since it's on a small screen.

I wouldn't say you were ignorant, just a different point of view - I’m perhaps a bit too opinionated on some things and my world is a little too ideological for some peoples taste.
I can see your point to a degree but I don't believe the people you have to be associated with to commit the crime should really have any impact on the gravity of the crime itself.
I mean they wouldn't give "fairtrade" crack dealers any less jail time than ones that were totally unscrupulous about it.. at the end of the day the crime is the crime.
I agree that people who don't lock down their wireless networks are somewhat to blame, but as someone said previously if i left my door unlocked i'd not expect you to help yourself to a sandwich out of my fridge.. and some people just dont understand the technology - i know ignorance is no excuse generally speaking - but i think without the correct education you can't blame these people. If i turned on the WPA controls from my router it would (perceivably) just stop working (unless i knew exactly where to type the key into my pc). It's not like there are many good one click solutions to enable encryption - certainly none that I’ve seen that *just* work.
I think the violent crime is a totally different issue - I do agree resources should be put in place there, but I think its detached.
My network is totally open, my only defences now are basic mac filters - just hate typing the keys into my handheld devices! and a mac is mega easy to add to the list - but i live out in the sticks so risk isn't considerable (yes i know macs can be cloned but i'm miles from anyone, i dont think unless you had a Yagi or something you could actually pick up my signal from public land).

The 3g stuff is amazing really, i regularly got a connection just slightly under double the speed of when i first got broadband (so probably equivalent to a 1meg broadband line) - that's in a village about 20 mins out of edinburgh - latency is pretty awful, but i just use it for browsing / IM so it's more than fast enough for me. Coverage is alright.. getting better all the time, you're in kent i think i remember you saying in the past, my ex lives in canterbury and i used to get excellent 3.5g signal there, similar speeds to up here - Kent in general is well served due to population density and amount of money floating around there i guess. I have no 3g at all where i live in suffolk - maybe one day.. but not for the forseeable - infact i dont even get any 2g on Orange!
(Am with Tmobile though so that's okay).
IM on a mobile is fine, well in my opinion i use the official MSN Live Messenger beta at the minute (on a Nokia N95), and thats really good.
Some sites are better than others, amazon is superb - can buy anthing in about 4 clicks. I've been with a mate of mine before in my local - she suggested a book i should get.. disappeared off to the bathroom, but the time shed got back i'd ordered and paid for it
Should do my work really!!
cheers,
andrew

[nishv]

It's a criminal offence!

[2ndmouse]

Sorry to resurrect this one - but I think it's worth saying that acidtechno has answered his own question in the title of this thread. 'Stealing' is wrong, whatever shade of grey, pink, red or orange you place on it.