Nildram start traffic shaping... again

[aos101]

Last year Nildram started traffic shaping and then stopped when they were flooded with MAC requests, and now it turns out they've been trialling traffic shaping again for the past few months on parts of their network without telling their customers (haven't Pipex been here before...):

http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthre...Number=3004334

They are now going to roll it out to all their ADSL connections on the 21st. Pipex just will not learn to keep their customers informed on matters that directly affect their service will they? The reaction was so bad last time they had to do a complete U turn, and they go and do the same thing again (traffic shaping without telling their customers first), except this time they've recycled some of the F2S traffic shaping FAQ for their customers to read:

http://www.nildram.net/faqs/question...nagement-faqs/

It's as if they feel compelled to do things behind their customers' backs, and they couldn't live with themselves if they were actually open with their customers. Some mistakes Pipex just make again and again and again...

[grumbert]

Except that if they would announce that they were going to trial traffic management (no matter how good it is or how right it gets things) the hysteria surrounding it would make unworkable.

I am not advocating a cloak and dagger policy towards customers but it does seem that the words "traffic management" send some people into an irrational rage leaving the ISP stuck between a rock and a hard place.

[aos101]

So it's better to play about with the customers' service without telling them, because they wouldn't like it if you told them what you were doing? If it really is a good thing overall (which it may well be), it's up to the ISP to show that to their customers the best they can (explain the bandwidth isn't cheap and the bandwidth demand keeps going up and up).

The customer is going to find out eventually that the ISP is traffic shaping, so you are just delaying the inevitable. By doing it in secret, you are just giving them another reason to want to leave. Customers might not like traffic shaping, but they dislike traffic shaping and dishonesty even more.

[grumbert]

Well, I didn't quite say that or at least I didn't mean that. What I meant to say is that the words "traffic management" stir up such a hysteria (best example is andythebrave's reply in the thinkbroadband forum, I could almost see the frothing at the mouth from where I am sitting) that any attempt by an ISP to openly discuss the projected implementation is going to hit the bottom line more.

Of course openess is a desirable quality, but I do think that the issues leading to traffic management are well known in the community. Bandwidth isn't infinite, pipes do cost a lot of money, the margins are very slim, and I believe that the T&C's pretty much allow the ISP to pursue this course of action.

However, and we might have to decide to agree to disagree here, the insinuation is there from a lot of people that no matter what the ISP tells them, believe that traffic management is bad and will ruin everyone's online experience. Contrary to what some people may think I don't believe that ISPs are setting out to **** everyone off

[keith_thfc]

@ Grumbert

The main reason why customers loathe traffic shaping is because the ISP don't have the honesty to state this clearly in the ads/product pages.

http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showthre...Number=3004334

During this time we have been closely monitoring our customers’ reactions. On the parts of our network where this has been applied, the feedback from customers has been positive and their online experience has improved.

ROFL

I'd love to see the evidence of this so called positive feedback....

.....................

Hello Sir. I'm calling from Nildram today to let you know we've chosen you. yes lucky ol' you, to participate in testing our new traffic shaping trial. Please don't tell anyone though as we wouldn't want the rest knowing in case they get jealous.

1 week later.......

What do you mean you want your Mac code? You ungrateful beggar. No you don't understand. By grinding down your gaming and p2p to a snail's pace you can now ensure that Granny Irene down the road can access her internet banking fast as lightning at peak times. And our fat cat Pipex Directors will get even richer because we can spend less on bandwidth. DO YOU UNDERSTAND!!!!! So I'm putting you down as saying "traffic shaping has improved my online experience" as I'm sure this is what you mean if you sit down and think about others for a change instead of just yourself.

If you would still like a Mac code please wait while I transfer you to our Pipex retentions department who will ensure you get fobbed off with at least 3 duff Mac codes to try and stall you.

Have a nice day!

[richard_f2s]

Keith, I think you've completely misunderstood the facts relating to the TM profile that is in place on f2s and now on Nildram...

With the rise and rise of applications that are bandwidth heavy and non-interactive ISPs are having to employ traffic management in order to ensure that people using applications such as web browsers, VoIP etc have access to bandwidth to support that. Without management that bandwidth would simply disappear.

I'll lay bets that once other ISPs that don't traffic manage have levels of non-interactive traffic on their networks that start to impact less heavy users that they will in turn introduce similar management profiles. Simply adding more and more bandwidth is not an option for an ISP - central pipe costs are expensive and its just not economic.

As for the cynical ROFL, and as you're not an f2s customer perhaps you wouldn't have seen this, perhaps you'd have a look at the feedback that this forum presented following the introduction of dynamic traffic management.

Such is the nature of the profile that P2P speeds will not necessarily drop to a crawl, and if they do it's because that bandwidth needs to be made available to customers who want to run more time critical applications.

[aos101]

Originally Posted by grumbert

Well, I didn't quite say that or at least I didn't mean that. What I meant to say is that the words "traffic management" stir up such a hysteria (best example is andythebrave's reply in the thinkbroadband forum, I could almost see the frothing at the mouth from where I am sitting) that any attempt by an ISP to openly discuss the projected implementation is going to hit the bottom line more.

I disagree. I think if the ISP explains the situation they are in (maybe pointing out how large a proportion of the bandwidth P2P uses) you might be surprised that a lot of the customers are understanding (obviously not all). I can't believe that long term being dishonest with customers about traffic shaping helps the bottom line more. In the short term, maybe you get less people leaving if you don't tell them what you are trialling, but long term once people realise the ISP has been doing things behind their back they are not going to think fondly of the ISP. Long term they will dislike the ISP for traffic shaping and dishonesty, instead of just traffic shaping.

Really by not fully explaining their position and trialling shaping without telling the customers, ISPs are just reinforcing customers distrust towards traffic shaping. Customers see it as something sneaky and bad because it is often implemented (or trialled) without them being told first. If it really is a good thing overall for most customers, why treat it like something bad and try to hide it?

[norm]

Well it looks as though they've (Nildram) done a good job this time
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/05...th_throttling/
Nice to see that beta testing on us lonely f2s users paid off... Right! Perhaps not?!

Cheers,

Norm

[keith_thfc]

Originally Posted by richard_f2s

Keith, I think you've completely misunderstood the facts relating to the TM profile that is in place on f2s and now on Nildram...

I think you are completely missing the point Richard. People grumble about traffic management because ISP's don't have the balls to inform them of its existance.

The weasely quote below from the new Register article illustrates all too clearly that Pipex/Nildram are trying to hide this from the vast majority of their customers.

Update
Nildram sent us this statement:

Our website was updated on Thursday 17th May announcing the introduction of a new traffic management process which was enabled during the evening of Monday 21st May. We also posted an announcement on Think Broadband.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/05...th_throttling/

[aos101]

Our website was updated on Thursday 17th May announcing the introduction of a new traffic management process which was enabled during the evening of Monday 21st May.

Do they usually announce things in their FAQ section? Are users expected to regularly visit the FAQ section of the Nildram site to get the latest news? Isn't this exactly the sort of thing their news section (with RSS feed) was made for?

If I wanted to announce something, I would put it in the news section myself, not the FAQ. It's as if they didn't really wan't to announce it.

[keith_thfc]

Originally Posted by aos101

If I wanted to announce something, I would put it in the news section myself, not the FAQ. It's as if they didn't really wan't to announce it.

As Pipex showed before with f2s, they go to great lengths to avoid announcing anything to do with traffic shaping.

My ISP is far from perfect but when they have news (good or bad) we get an email about it.

[richard_f2s]

Originally Posted by keith_thfc

I think you are completely missing the point Richard. People grumble about traffic management because ISP's don't have the balls to inform them of its existance.

Agreed. I hope that I've done a good enough job here that that can't be levelled at f2s? Awaits volley of rifle shots.

[johnone]

I'm not happy! Traffic management (Throttling) has been in place on f2s for sometime now. I do do P2P torrent file sharing and am careful to endeavour to only do it out of peak hours in order to respect interactive usage of the ISP bandwidth for people in their day to day usage. A few months ago torrents were throttled to an extent that they were not viable. After complaining on these pages it all worked pretty well between 1am & 6am. Now it's gone sour again.
I reserve the right to use my connection with restraint & sensitivity with regard to all.
Now it's got so bad that torrents have to be done outside the wee small hours . They are still painfully slow and this situation is not acceptable for the common Good!
John.

[acidtechno]

Originally Posted by johnone

Now it's got so bad that torrents have to be done outside the wee small hours . They are still painfully slow and this situation is not acceptable for the common Good!
John.

I think you are overeacting and placing all blame directly at F2S, speeds depend on how many sources are available and what speeds they can upload at and depending what torrent you are downloading there might be more or less users online during a specific time period who are seeding that torrent, the less amount of users, the less speed you will see and obviously in the late afternoon to late evening busy period when traffic shaping is slowing p2p speeds down the most it will be harder to achieve faster speeds. I can see you are understanding about the fact that other services need the bandwidth to function correctly, some torrents will just take longer than pre-shaping, this isn't a bad thing as it helps cap your use so the usage limit is not abused too much. People do need to understand that p2p involves multiple reasons which affect speeds, the finger cannot be pointed at the provider only.

Personal experience of the traffic management at F2S has been good and I notice the effects of it, some people really make such a huge fuss about it but it has not prevented users getting what they want when they want still. It's still easy to hit high usage figures even with traffic management in place.

I strongly agree ISPs need to be upfront and honest with their users and should announce in some form that they will be doing something that might affect performance on a huge scale.

The reality is many people don't have a clue what traffic management means, how it affects them, many don't even use p2p/torrents. Even if there are some outbursts against an ISP on some forums or in some technology news web sites it's probably more of a small scale reaction from the ISP customer base because I will say a lot of people don't regularly visit ISP forums or read technology news.

[johnone]

Originally Posted by acidtechno

I think you are overeacting and placing all blame directly at F2S...

I strongly agree ISPs need to be upfront and honest with their users and should announce in some form that they will be doing something that might affect performance on a huge scale.

The reality is many people don't have a clue what traffic management means, how it affects them, many don't even use p2p/torrents. Even if there are some outbursts against an ISP on some forums or in some technology news web sites it's probably more of a small scale reaction from the ISP customer base because I will say a lot of people don't regularly visit ISP forums or read technology news.

Acid I have to agree with your well reasoned argument almost whole heartily and I have the utmost regard for all the other users on this ISP and I don't want to hog the bandwidth.

However, I don't think I am over-reacting when it comes to the over use of torrent thottling. I always try to DL torrent files at off peak times (ie 1-6am) to preserve the bandwidth for all other use for the other 19 hours of the day.

I'm pretty sure that I know when a well seeded torrent file is being unfairly restricted and reduced to a few K. At that point there is always Usenet from very fast banks of servers and DL's of typically 380k with only minimal UL as one is not filesharing. As yet Usenet is not being throttled by f2s but, I prefer to do torrents if I am able. High speed Usenet DL's have a potential for overusing the bandwidth and AFAIK could have a vast effect on BW at anytime.

On a positive note my current torrent file DL was reasonable and eventually topped 100K briefly last night.

Now about that f2s user survey....... :<)