Online Fraud

[acidtechno]

Hello,

Have any of you F2S customers who have card details held by F2S been the victim of fraud recently?

Asking seriously here, thanks.

[AndyBites]

No - i'd suggest you'd be very unlikely to suffer card fraud through F2S.

What makes you think it has to be online?

Could be someone having taken a copy by skimming your card - it can be done in literally a few seconds and will record all data, including the security code on the back - generally speaking i'd say this is far more likely than online fraud.

Do you live in a busy area? if so is quite possible someone could have taken a bin bag and used all the receipts to piece together your credit card number (shockingly easy- many outlets still print whole credit card numbers or just star out 4 - obviously this isn't much use as each store stars out 4 different numbers so with any 3 reciepts chances are you could create a whole cc number)

[acidtechno]

First time I've been the victim of this since using the internet for 8 or 9 years. I know definitely this happened online because I never use my card in shops, and it's never been in a cash machine. Someone somewhere must have got my card details via a store or service I've used, perhaps a dodgy worker or a place got hacked.

the transaction has gone through as it appears on my statement but there wasn't enough in the account and I am now hundreds of pounds overdrawn at my bank. I've never gone overdrawn once with that account.

I've had to get the card replaced and have reported the incident to my bank which have said will be investigated, I read banks handle fraud cases now instead of the police, the banks take it to the police if needed. The place that accepted the payment must have an address where fraudster tried to have goods delivered, so that's a start. I'm pretty tempted to phone myself and see where I can get, but I doubt I will be allowed to know the address that was attempted to be used for delivery?

Now though, I'm pretty screwed, 4-5 working days for a new card, and I've been told I have to wait 5-10 (probably working) days for a form to fill out about this, so I can claim the money back. Let's just say I won't be able to pay for anything for a while.

[Homer Simpson]

I never, ever, ever use my Debit Card online, because someone could clear out your whole bank account. Imagine if you had saved £15,000 and someone stole the lot, and there is no guarantee that the bank will reimburse you, you may have to prove to them that you did not spend the money

Always use a Credit Card with fraud protection, and do not have too high a credit limit, so if anything does get stolen, the Credit card company will write off the debt fairly quickly, and your £15,000 you have saved in your bank account is kept safe

Also shread any paper mail that has your name and address on it, especially mailshots for credit cards, because the application form that is enclosed already has your name and address and application number printed on it. Bin bags are apparently the No1 area where fraudsters look

Another online trick I use is to combat spam to my main email address. I use something like a hotmail address for all the forms or registrations on web sites, and only give my main address to friends and family
All the spam then goes to the hotmail address
If you need to keep any of the emails sent to the hotmail address, just manually forward them to your main address or set up an automatic forward

These are just a few suggestions which have kept me safe so far!!

[akita_inu]

You have my sympathy .... I recently had a fraudulent transaction on one of my cards (which I do use on line) and I narrowed it down to one of two sources - one was an online retailer, but the purchase had been several weeks previously, and the payment went through Worldpay; the other was a few days before the transaction and was via the phone - I would tend to prefer the latter as the culprit ... it made me feel a bit sick

[acidtechno]

Thanks Rachel and Homer,

You do not use your card to order goods online Homer? never have done? I assume you go out to real stores to get your goods, the old fashioned way- to avoid putting your banking details online?

In my case, the proof I will have is the fact whoever used my card details tried to have the goods delivered to another address, and maybe they (my bank) might get the police to investigate that address but I'm sure they (banks) sweep many cases under the carpet.

I've always tried to be very careful when it comes to personal security, shredding or burning documents. Keeping safe online with my details and where I use them. Seeing as this has not happened to me before in a very long time it came as quite a shock the other night. I don't get paper statements anymore because I do my banking online.

The problem is Rachel, I have used my card at many online stores, so it is very difficult to track down how this happened, who can you trust? I have logged into all of my store accounts to delete my payment details where possible, but some stores force you to keep them stored which is extremely annoying and not good for personal security.

I thought it was worth a shot to ask if anyone else had suffered the same fate.

my thoughts point towards a store getting hacked and payment details stolen, and I won't rule out a dodgy worker somewhere where my payment details have been stored in the past.

You've all heard it happen, some companies have suffered from these attacks where customer details have been accessed and stolen.

To follow up Andy, as I said the card has not been used in public/cash machines so has never been at risk, and I live in a quiet area, you won't get people sniffing through bin bags, and here rubbish is put out on the same day and is pretty secure at night - and again, since card is not used in public, on the street, I have no receipts for it.

I did contact the store where the illegal order took place, anonymously, to ask about their ordering system. I was told with your first order it has to be delivered to the cardholders address, only the 2nd or 3rd order, depending on the amount, can be delivered to an alternate address. This leaves me wondering how someone was able to make an order then with my details? because it looks like the store failed to make security checks and let someone order for the first time, using an alternate address for delivery - what hope is there for us if a store is not tight enough with its security? I told them what I thought. They told me if I wanted further information (fraudsters address so I can send the heavy mob round - just kidding!) I would have to contact the police but I will just let my bank deal with it, and might be able to find out more from my bank later on. The police don't deal with these cases directly anymore as far as I know. I did mention I was the victim of fraud at their store, but did not give them my details so they knew who I was.

This has left me wanting to be even stronger minded about security, as if I wasn't enough already. The worst thing about it is not knowing where the source is, and how it happened.

If I learn more, I will update this topic

[Homer Simpson]

Yes I do use my card online but only my Credit Card not my Debit Card
So if the card details get stolen you are protected by a credit limit and better fraud protection
The fraudsters are stealing money from the Credit Card Company not your bank account

Also if I enter my Credit Card details when I order, before the order is processed it has to go through VISA's Verisign proceedure which has a username and password that only you know and it is authenticated externally from the web site that you are ordering from by Verisign's secure web site

There is not much verification or fraud protection with Debit Cards

I sympathise with you and everyone else who has been a victim of fraud, I can imagine it is not a nice feeling at all
I know how I felt when I had my car broken into, I felt as if someone had abused me personally, and I wanted to wrap a thick metal bar around their heads, and I would have if I had caught them

I hope you manage to get all your money back

[keith_thfc]

I've also been hit with credit card fraud this week. Its a right pain as took me ages to remember the PIN and set up automatically for online payments etc.

Was told it was a US company called Blizzard involved.

[acidtechno]

Originally Posted by keith_thfc

I've also been hit with credit card fraud this week. Its a right pain as took me ages to remember the PIN and set up automatically for online payments etc.

Was told it was a US company called Blizzard involved.

Might be Blizzard Entertainment, the company behind the hugely popular (although not for me) World Of Warcraft game, which requires monthly fees to play. Have you played that game? or was money stolen to be used at a company called Blizzard.

[AndyBites]

I heard the Steam (the protection for half life 2) servers have been broken into - apparently ALL the credit card info on there has been exposed...

[akita_inu]

Originally Posted by AndyBites

I heard the Steam (the protection for half life 2) servers have been broken into - apparently ALL the credit card info on there has been exposed...

.... ouch!!!

[acidtechno]

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/04...ve_steam_hack/
http://emp.damage-web.net/viewtopic.php?p=62590
http://forums.multiplay.co.uk/showthread.php?p=627837

Russian hacker, who gained access to the Cyber Cafe server(s) which contained all private info, including card details.

https://cafe.steampowered.com
A way for internet/game cafe owners to have a license and ability to have steam powered games available.

[AndyBites]

I believe (can't remember source) the exploit that allowed access to the Cafe section will quite possibly allow access to the regular consumer cards too - same server - different area.

the register kinda backs this up "We contacted MaddoxX via email. He claimed he first gained access to Steam this January, and said that although the cyber cafe customer database is not linked to the standard customer list, he has access to that too. Valve have not contacted him, he said, but have approached his hosting provider to take down the page which announces the hack, so far without success." as per acids link.

[keith_thfc]

Originally Posted by acidtechno

Might be Blizzard Entertainment, the company behind the hugely popular (although not for me) World Of Warcraft game, which requires monthly fees to play. Have you played that game? or was money stolen to be used at a company called Blizzard.

That was my suspicion.

Although I've never played a single online game in my life..........so lord knows how they got my details.

[Nick A J]

Originally Posted by keith_thfc

Although I've never played a single online game in my life..........so lord knows how they got my details.

Would this have anything to do with it?

BBC News Credit Card Skimming

[acidtechno]

Whoever had the stolen details decided to use them at Blizzard, probably for world of warcraft, but it's not like you can spend alot of money there, pay for 1 month and the card is useless once it gets canceled by the owner.

The skimming story, very shocking to hear.. card details stolen can go on to be used for anything anywhere but since pin numbers were stolen in addition and bank accounts emptied to get money - it's unlikely the details would have been used anywhere else since the account would have been emptied and any cards would be canceled once that happened.

[acidtechno]

Hi,

just to follow up on what happened to me.

I finally got money back because of my card details being illegally used somewhere.

It took 2 weeks but at least things are back to normal now.

Does anyone know if I am entitled to know from my bank if any investigation resulted in someone being investigated/prosecuted/charged by the police because of use of my details, and if I am allowed to know the delivery address, or at least the town/city or county of the delivery address used/attempted to be used?

[DavidC]

I had a situation some time ago where card details of mine was used to order some goods.
I got the money back ok (it was a bank card)
But I could not find out from the store that the goods were bought from who the culprit was (the goods were not delivered before I spotted it on my statement - luck!)
Data Protection Act was quoted at me

[acidtechno]

ah I see, I assume banks can act in the same way then.

it provides the perfect oppurtunity for banks to sweep it under the carpet. How will customers know if anything was investigated (with the police) other than the bank contacting a company to help prove someone did not authorise use of their card.

as mentioned previously, I had some communication with the store via e-mail - nothing detailed, and they mentioned contacting the police if I wanted to discuss further details, it is understandable, because the store has no proof you are who you say you are, and are not going to give out private information to anyone.

I think it's probably hard to trace anyone anyway. My thoughts are if you are going to try and use stolen card details, you will rent a place under false details, use it as a delivery address, then get out of there - cops will never trace you.

[acidtechno]

I've just discovered my bank have placed a £50.00 charge on me and an additional interest charge related to where I went overdrawn I suppose because of the large transaction from my account 1-2 months ago.

Will try phoning my bank to get these charges refunded, how cruel can a bank be when it wasn't my fault I went overdrawn (I never have with this account) and then they go and charge fees on me, ridiculous, they should have put a marker on my account to make sure I wouldn't be charged like this.

HSBC

[akita_inu]

Originally Posted by acidtechno

I've just discovered my bank have placed a £50.00 charge on me and an additional interest charge related to where I went overdrawn I suppose because of the large transaction from my account 1-2 months ago.

Will try phoning my bank to get these charges refunded, how cruel can a bank be when it wasn't my fault I went overdrawn (I never have with this account) and then they go and charge fees on me, ridiculous, they should have put a marker on my account to make sure I wouldn't be charged like this.

HSBC

Kick up a fuss ..... if you do you're likely to get the charge refunded .... If you keep quiet they won't !! I really dislike the big five banks - I went for a small bank (Williams & Glyn's) which was swallowed by a big bank (RBS) so I jumped ship to smile ...

[DavidC]

I think the penalty is from the 'auto-pilot'.
I do not think the bank can get away with charging you £XX for a transaction you did not authorise.

[AndyBites]

I know they got a lot of not so good press (charging people who dont earn a minimum amount each month etc) but firstdirect are a fantastic bank, always go above and beyond what i'd usually expect a bank to do for me!

Only had two problems since I started with them, once the issue was sorted out on the phone, the other I time a team leader phoned me back, apologised and credited my account.

Only problem i have with them is only having some silly number of Branches (they're part of HSBC) in Scotland - i think its something like 3 or 4 branches in the whole country, am just thankful i fly home every weekend or i'd never be able to pay in any cheques!!

And acid i think if you explain to HSBCthe situation they'd refund the charge - let's be honest it wasn't your fault, and they must know that. Just so long as you never went more overdrawn than the amount you/they were defrauded for then i should imagine they'll happily credit you.

[acidtechno]

Originally Posted by AndyBites

Just so long as you never went more overdrawn than the amount you/they were defrauded for then i should imagine they'll happily credit you.

from what I've read, I think you don't get charged the first time you go overdrawn, and then you get charged next time. Because of the amount of time I waited to have the money from the fruadulent transaction to be refunded, the time period counted as being overdrawn twice I believe, so I was then charged for it.

"You will not have to pay for your first agreed overdraft request (formal or informal) in any 6 month period. Each further request in a 6 month period may incur an arrangement fee."

It was out of my control during the time I was waiting, such as my ISP charge being taken, but I didn't do any unnecessary spending.

I phoned HSBC earlier to get the 2 charges refunded ( £50.00 and a seperate interest charge ). It took quite a while to get it sorted out.. I was speaking to an indian guy.. probably all the way in india, I never like talking to these people. They need to learn to slow down while they are talking, and speak up a bit.. I could not understand every word he was saying.

I was successful in the end, after many questions and music playing (for him to find out more info). Then he proceeded to try and get me interested in HSBC credit cards, he went on and on and had a real motormouth on him.. I didn't understand a word.. he tried to get me interested in it because I had gone overdrawn.. and a credit card would be better for me, but I reminded him the fraud was my problem in the first place, and that I wasn't interested in a credit card at this time.

so yeah, I'll get those charges refunded, tomorrow he said.. I hope

pretty tired of asking indians to repeat themselves though...

[fusionblue]

A few months ago, someone tried to spend nearly £2000 from my credit card (it's with smile).

Fortunately the limit is half that, and the largest transaction i made was about £470 (for a HDTV), which i repaid straight away. It was made in India to, it seems, purchase airline tickets. Smile called me, cancelled the card and refunded both the payments no questions asked.

I do use my debit card online, but it is via paypal and google checkout mainly.